This was posted on the Newsgroups
Please note that text with the >signs is NOT FROM ME
From: fo6a001-at-rrz.uni-hamburg.de (Robin Stuart)
Subject: Re: Circumcision FAQ [1/1]
Date: 16 Dec 1996 22:13:34 GMT
> What the hell was so "convincing" about
> Abraham's alleged "divine revelation"?
> What...that it was so crazy that it had
> to be "from God"? Like, who in their
> right mind would volunteer to have a
> piece of their genitals sliced off...
Men with phimosis - There are many reports around of men
who have circumcised themselves - a man could do it for
various reasons, for example if he had problems by
penetration and wished to have children.
>then decide to do it to his children?
If he noticed a similar condition in his children and if he
was a caring person, he would wish to eliminate this element
of chaos in his children, -(I'm not suggesting anyone pre
2,000 yrs. would have appreciated it as an element of chaos,
more likely he would have identified it with fertility, or
maybe unclean/untouchable values)
If he was a caring father, he would not wait till after
the child's wedding night, he would perform this as a
preventative measure, - a sensible age to do this would
be when the child was around the age of puberty - It
is around puberty that problems with the foreskin often
become painfully apparent, or inhibited attitudes to
sexuality develop resulting from an avoidance of such
> "Absolutely clearly from God"? You have "absolute
>and clear" proof that God (a) exists; and (b) S/He
>"absolutely and clearly" commanded circ? As to
>(a)...thousands of years hasn't "proven conclusively"
>the existence of God...anymore than the Greeks
>were able to prove conclusively Zeus "absolutely and
>clearly" existed. As to (b) you only have the word of
>a *man* named Abraham that he "had a conversation
>with God"...a man who was in his 90's.
Looking for God from an objective or scientific view
point, will never find him, let alone prove him. Many
mystics have testified, that God is the ultimate
subjective experience. If science cant prove God,
it doesn't mean that God doesn't exist, it only
means that science cant prove him. God is not
provable except by personal experience.
At the times Abraham lived, people understood their
subjective experiences as the truth, they never thought
a great deal about objective or scientific truths. Ancient
cultures like Judaism are not built on science, they are
built on empirical knowledge, gathered from individual
subjective experiences which confirm each other or
build regular patterns.
People of necessity trusted their subjective feelings,
either that or they got scared!,- which brings
us to your points about blind belief. Blind belief
appears to have created a balance for the evolving
human being - would you argue that scientific truth
has given human's a better, more realistic and fulfilling
grasp of reality? (N.B. scientific method originated
in Greece where they infibulated -(created an
artificial phimosis e.g. by tying together and
narrowing the end of the foreskin),).
To conclude, there are men of all ages, in perfect
control of their mental faculties, who have had
practical reason to circumcise themselves, and there
are people and circumstances where they would have
introduced this for the welfare of their family/tribe/nation.
And, they would obviously have expressed any self knowledge,
or deeper understanding, or opening, within the terms of
their cultural understanding, e.g. as a revelation from
God - You would not expect them to write a 50 word
abstract and have to build an essay as I have, it
would have been misunderstood, in the same way, as
I would be misunderstood, should I present my basic
case from a religious standpoint.
NOTE Though in ancient times, I can fully sympathise with
any man who introduced this measure (circ.) - times change,
and I firmly believe that these days modern methods of
prevention, and monitoring a boy's penis are a more
efficient way of eliminating the elements of
chaos and ignorance