IN DEFENCE OF ABRAHAM This was posted on the Newsgroups Please note that text with the >signs is NOT FROM ME From: fo6a001-at-rrz.uni-hamburg.de (Robin Stuart) Newsgroups: misc.kids.pregnancy,misc.kids.health,misc.kids,sci.med Subject: Re: Circumcision FAQ [1/1] Date: 16 Dec 1996 22:13:34 GMT > What the hell was so "convincing" about > Abraham's alleged "divine revelation"? > What...that it was so crazy that it had > to be "from God"? Like, who in their > right mind would volunteer to have a > piece of their genitals sliced off... Men with phimosis - There are many reports around of men who have circumcised themselves - a man could do it for various reasons, for example if he had problems by penetration and wished to have children. >and >then decide to do it to his children? If he noticed a similar condition in his children and if he was a caring person, he would wish to eliminate this element of chaos in his children, -(I'm not suggesting anyone pre 2,000 yrs. would have appreciated it as an element of chaos, more likely he would have identified it with fertility, or maybe unclean/untouchable values) If he was a caring father, he would not wait till after the child's wedding night, he would perform this as a preventative measure, - a sensible age to do this would be when the child was around the age of puberty - It is around puberty that problems with the foreskin often become painfully apparent, or inhibited attitudes to sexuality develop resulting from an avoidance of such painful experiences. > "Absolutely clearly from God"? You have "absolute >and clear" proof that God (a) exists; and (b) S/He >"absolutely and clearly" commanded circ? As to >(a)...thousands of years hasn't "proven conclusively" >the existence of God...anymore than the Greeks >were able to prove conclusively Zeus "absolutely and >clearly" existed. As to (b) you only have the word of >a *man* named Abraham that he "had a conversation >with God"...a man who was in his 90's. Looking for God from an objective or scientific view point, will never find him, let alone prove him. Many mystics have testified, that God is the ultimate subjective experience. If science cant prove God, it doesn't mean that God doesn't exist, it only means that science cant prove him. God is not provable except by personal experience. At the times Abraham lived, people understood their subjective experiences as the truth, they never thought a great deal about objective or scientific truths. Ancient cultures like Judaism are not built on science, they are built on empirical knowledge, gathered from individual subjective experiences which confirm each other or build regular patterns. People of necessity trusted their subjective feelings, either that or they got scared!,- which brings us to your points about blind belief. Blind belief appears to have created a balance for the evolving human being - would you argue that scientific truth has given human's a better, more realistic and fulfilling grasp of reality? (N.B. scientific method originated in Greece where they infibulated -(created an artificial phimosis e.g. by tying together and narrowing the end of the foreskin),). To conclude, there are men of all ages, in perfect control of their mental faculties, who have had practical reason to circumcise themselves, and there are people and circumstances where they would have introduced this for the welfare of their family/tribe/nation. And, they would obviously have expressed any self knowledge, or deeper understanding, or opening, within the terms of their cultural understanding, e.g. as a revelation from God - You would not expect them to write a 50 word abstract and have to build an essay as I have, it would have been misunderstood, in the same way, as I would be misunderstood, should I present my basic case from a religious standpoint. Robin NOTE Though in ancient times, I can fully sympathise with any man who introduced this measure (circ.) - times change, and I firmly believe that these days modern methods of prevention, and monitoring a boy's penis are a more efficient way of eliminating the elements of chaos and ignorance -->https://www.rrz.uni-hamburg.de/fo-p1/solutions.html