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Re: Checking the archives, noticed something.

Written by Rood at 08 Jun 2002 05:42:10:

As an answer to: Re: Checking the archives, noticed something. written by Anonymous at 07 Jun 2002 22:19:15:

Thank you for the insight into your culture, and I'm happy to know your term for the Sun Dance, Wawanyag Wicapi. I wouldn't dream of attempting to copy the forms of a culture not my own. It would indeed be "walking in circles". I must say, however, that I have more in common with the principles and ideals of your culture than with that of the Judeo-Christian world, the forms of which I rejected when very young. It was for me a journey to nowhere. My "culture" is uniquely my own.

As far as the use and abuse of images are concerned, one of the finest that exists in my mind is from the Lewis and Clark expedition. As it approached the Mandan Villages north of the present day Mandan, North Dakota in 1804, the expedition encountered a group of mounted Sioux, "naked" as the explorers noted. Having spent twenty Novembers very near where this encounter took place, I have only the most profound respect for the strength of character exemplified by this exercise in native American life on the prairie.

I would suggest not describing the ceremony. Local television news has recently reported on white men attempting forms of the ceremony north of Phoenix, here in Arizona.


>I, too, am from Dakotah and have been fascinated with the Native American culture, especially that which existed along the Missouri prior to and just after the arrival of Europeans in the late 1700's and early 1800's. I am quite familiar with the religio-mystical O-kee-pa ceremony of the Mandan peoples of the upper Missouri in which the men willingly tortured and mutilated themselves.
>-_-;;; Never say "Missouri" in front of an Indian. It brings back images of Joseph Smith, who - no offense to any Mormons here - was the first shame-on. Which brings us back to the foreskin. LOL
>>The Mandan were a Siouan people. Was the O-kee-pa also a ceremony of the Lakota at that time?
>We called it the Wawanyag Wicapi, or Sun Dance.
>>I have seen recent photographs indicating that it is still in force among certain groups. I believe it is called a Ceremony to the Sun, today, but I may be mistaken.
>It's still done, but we dislike letting ppl photograph it. During the 19th and 20th century, a lot of anthropologists took nude pictures of Indians - and other indigenous peoples, mostly Africans - emphasizing the genitals, and that became the first gay pr0n. (Even today, National Geographic as pr0n is cliché.) As a result, most indigenous peoples don't like getting their pictures taken. Even if the subject doesn't mind, you have to ask first.
>>I find it interesting that an adult Native American would make a conscious decision to participate in such a ceremony, whereas the European and the Semitic peoples would force their religious mutilations upon helpless children. Which civilization is more cultured?
>I'd answer that, but it's a rhetorical question. The other thing is that, whereas Christians force conversion, a non-Indian can't follow Indian beliefs if they want to. Those who try end up "walking in circles," as we say.
>>If you are acquainted with the O-kee-pa, perhaps you could describe it to us.
>Only if you promise to NEVER do it. Indian beliefs focus on the nation, and ours won't work for yours. To quote Third Rock from the Sun, "You can't be black. Nina is black, and they apparently have strict rules about these things."
>>Certainly it is a far more manly and demanding discipline than the cowardly genital mutilation of newborn babies that is known as circumcision.
>You wouldn't be the first to say that. Indians seem to be the model of neo-masculinity, though I don't know how anything thousands of years old can be called "neo." ;)
>Lakota social structure is one focusing on the family and the nation. We call each other cousin, and believe that everyone is important. To quote Ohiyesa, "It has been said that the position of woman is the test of civilization, and that of our women was secure. In them was vested our standard of morals and the purity of our blood."


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