PRE-PUBERTY - PSYCHOLOGY
16 May 2005 07:59:14 - Joe

Dear sirs,

I've read through the initiation site, and I must say I'm glad there is a site like this one. Most others tend to be extremely pro, while others, completely anti.

I myself lean towards the anti in the sense of Routine Infant Circumcision. I believe it should be ultimately up to an individual what he wants to do with his body, despite any potential preventative measures RIC can serve... "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

I like the initiation site because it not only sees the uselessness of RIC, it also follows through by showing how a parent should look out for his son to avoid any problems later on. I can see how ignorance can be the culprit of problems physical and psychological later on. It's really sad how some guys have to suffer simply because there was no guiding light there to assist them...

That aside, I would like to post a bit of my story. I'm intact, but my foreskin didn't retract until later, and I'm afraid this may have been part of the reason my personality is the way it is today. The initiation site suggests that guys can become inhibited in more ways than one.

When I was a kid, there were times where me and some cousins were playing around sexually with each other. I remember getting together in a circle and looking at each other’s penises… One thing that struck me was that they were already able to pull back their foreskins. This was when I was about 4 or 5. I was immediately envious of them, as I wanted to pull back my foreskin, but couldn’t. I remember feeling that my penis was somehow malformed or something, as all I could see was the slit of my glans protruding through my foreskin opening. I couldn’t pull it back, and any attempt resulted in pain and/or discomfort. I remember being envious of one cousin who could pull back his skin to reveal a large purple head.

I think when I was a kid I actually asked my mother why my cousins were different. Back then I couldn’t fathom what she was referring to, but she said that they were operated. I remember bugging her about having me operated, but I think I soon forgot about it, as me and my cousins played less with each other.

I suppose it sort of bothered me as a kid that I’d be different in that sense. I think I forgot all about it, until one day, when I was fooling around with myself in the restroom, I had to have been around 7 or 8… maybe 9, I don’t fully remember… I remember that I hadn’t played with myself in a long time. I remember that the last time I did any sort of playing, it hurt to pull my foreskin back… so I decided to try again… Slowly, I realized I could now fully pull back my foreskin! It was a real life changing experience for me! I think I was happy for a few weeks after that! At last I could join my cousin’s ranks! I’ll always remember that day… I remember I was still so sensitive. I couldn’t touch my glans directly, otherwise it would sting a little bit. Even though I could already pull my foreskin back, I kept it up for most of the time, pulling back only occasionally. Little by little I grew used to the sensation of my naked glans, and later I began incorporating actually touching my glans as part of playing with myself…

I think I must talk about the way I learned to masturbate because that also was different for me.

It was morning recess one day in second grade, a few minutes before the bell rang to come back in. I had been playing on a playground apparatus made of wooden logs that had been smoothed and polished. I don't know how it got to be this way, but I was climbing down on one of the logs which was slanting downwards towards the sand-box, and I was on top of this log lying on it so that my crotch is in full contact with the log's surface. Anyway, I had no sooner slid a few inches, when I began to feel this weird, but pleasant sensation emanating from my crotch. I remember I froze there and then, enjoying the feelings coming over me, when the recess bell rings and it was time to go back in.

From then on in I was humping a lot of things, many times unconscious of what was going on around me. No one ever told me humping logs wasn't considered "playing," so guess what? I didn't care if people watched me! I just went on whatever vacant log I found and humped them trying to get those feelings back. Eventually though, other kids started asking questions and I had eventually attracted the attention of my teachers who told me to stop. Even at home, I'd be humping the arms of our couches out plain like that when I talked on the phone or wasn't doing anything until my mom told me I couldn't do that anymore. Both at school and at home I kept wondering "why the fuck is it wrong to do this?!" But I learned to be more stealthy as I gradually moved from humping the logs at school, to humping the sand under them. (there were places where the sand was covered by the wooden apparatus and no one ever knew about them, so I could go there whenever I wanted to get off!!!) At home I went under the bed and learned to hump the carpet.

Until I was like 18 did I hump the floor and no one ever knew about it. It wasn't until then that I found out most guys jack off with their hands. Now I jack off with my hands but it has taken me time to get used to it. Even today I still struggle to get off using my hand...

Up until I was 18 I masturbated by rubbing on the floor on a carpet. When I was at school, I would hear about guys “jacking off,” while making hand gestures. Back then all of that was unfamiliar to me, and I couldn’t understand what they were talking to me about. They would ask me straight out “do you jack off?” To which I would respond a resounding “NO!” I later learned that what they were talking about was “masturbation,” and that it was often considered wrong. I went to a Christian school, and this was doubly hammered into my brain. But at night, I could rest assured that I had never “jacked off” in my life. Little did I know…

It wasn’t until I was about 17 or 18 that I started reading up on masturbation and jacking off on the internet. It was then I became conscious that I didn’t masturbate like most other guys on the planet. I became self-conscious because I wanted to jack off in the way most guys jacked off. I tried many times to no avail to jack off with my hand. I would get tired, and a lot of the time I would lose erection because what I was doing simply “wasn’t doing” anything for me. Jacking off with my hand meant I had to move my foreskin over my glans repetetively, a sensation that was new, yet weird to me. Furthermore, my hand would get tired after a while. It wasn’t as good as my glans always moving within the foreskin never peeping out, and me not having to use my hands. I would always just go back to humping the carpet. All I had to do was thrust.

I learned to masturbate the “correct way” one day in college, after a long time of abstaining. I didn’t do it consciously, I was just overwhelmed by school work, term papers and finals. Anyhow, one night I started fondling myself and I remember getting really aroused. I started trying jack off in the correct way, and after a few minutes I was able to climax with my hand! I was happy and content that I was now able to do it just like most other guys did. After that I tried doing it with my hand all of the time, but it didn’t always work. I would go back to bouts of trying to jack off the common way, only to regress to my carpet humping ways. I was insecure in my ability to bring myself off every time. I STILL kind of am. It takes me a longer time than when I hump the carpet.

I’ve gotten more used to the hand method, but I still occasionally go back to doing the floor once in a while. I still take a long time however, and this resulted in a sort of traumatic episode for me.

In college, I tried experimenting with a girl for once, and it ended a bit tragic. She wanted to go as far as jacking me off, but she just couldn’t do it. I went flaccid and ended up humping the floor because she was so intent on watching me ejaculate. I felt kind of bad, because she couldn’t get me off with her hand and I felt reduced to having to do it my old fashioned way. That was my first and last attempt at anything sexual in college.

This happened in my Sophomore year, and now, 5 years later (i'm 23) I’m starting to experiment again. This time it’s not so bad. My partner is unable to jack me off like before, but unlike last time, I have been able to climax for her using my own hand. It still kind of gets to me though, that it has to be me, not her that does it for her. I thank her so much, as she is understanding that not everyone enjoys a hand job. I’m grateful for her…

The other traumatic realization was that most people were circumcised in America. It came to my attention through a very pro-circumcisionist website, that made the blanket statement “girls want a circumcised man.” It pointed out that most men here are circumcised at birth, and it is intact men who are the minority. Furthermore, intact men are dirty, and only circumcised men are clean. Another situation where I would hate to have to be the odd one out, I became very interested in becoming circumcised, and researched the matter more. There was a time where I was very pro, and I became resentful at my parents for not having circumcised at birth… That is, until I actually researched what infantile circumcision entailed. After reading about doctors prying babies’ legs open, strapping them down to a cutting board, not using anesthetic to kill the pain, and all the supposed excuses used to support routine infant circumcision in the past, my mind changed. I realized that no, no matter what potential “benefits,” or problems later on, it should always be the choice of the individual and no one else. You can’t fix what ain’t broke, and people have the right to their own bodies. I became eternally grateful my parents decided to leave my body alone.

There is still a conflict within me however, as even though I completely oppose routine infantile circumcision, I’m faced with the reality that I am still the odd one out. In America “being cut” is the norm. There are women that find the natural penis alien, or even repulsive. Of course, I believe that if a woman wants to be with me, she will have to accept me as I am. I’d never demand a woman undergo infibulation or a breast implant, or any other kind of physical change just for me, and I’d expect the same respect. Still, I’d feel bad should I meet such a woman that would find my natural state repugnant… I’ve decided that I’m standing my ground on this one no matter what. Being intact is a “difference” I’d like to keep.

I believe these events have served to create sexual inhibitions. Not just that but they are some reasons why I don't feel like "one of the guys." Looking back, I wish my parents would have known of proper car of a boy. I wish I had been watched more closely. I can retract my foreskin just fine, but no one told me I might be able to do it as I got older. I wish someone told me how guys normally masturbated... I would have probably known what the other guys were talking about at school back then.

Anyway, I feel that part of my past has affected my personality in the way that I feel inadecuate as a man. I never had full on phimosis, but I still feel that my latency in retraction and my lack of being monitored may have affected me in some way.

could anyone give me some advice?

Thanks for any help...

Joe

______________________________________________ 

Re: Psychological Implications

18 May 2005 14:49:54 - Nick

Hi Joe,

(edited)

I had personally never really considered the possibility that pre-puberty problems might also have an affect on an individual’s psyche. I suppose that was because I had no consciousness of my condition until I was well into puberty. If my case was different like with yourself then who knows. I guess it is also significant that you are from a society in which it is seen as unnatural to remain intact. I suggest that maybe it is this feeling of dissimilarity, which has caused you some insecurity, rather than the latency of your retraction.

The account of your first experiences with masturbation is not unlike many accounts I have heard and indeed I myself recall masturbating similarly when I was younger and suffering with Phimosis. I believe it is considered normal for a phimosis sufferer to masturbate in the way you describe. It is however strange that you were able to normally retract at the point you began masturbating in this way almost as though you had not come to terms with your ability to fully retract at that stage. This probably indicates some presence of anxiety about the action of retracting your foreskin, which may be related to your recent complaint of failing to enjoy masturbation with your hand. Masturbating as you did against the floor removes the need to perform the action of retracting your foreskin, which also removes the anxiety.

You are probably still going through a period of coming to terms with your intact penis especially since you live in a country where most men are circumcised. I think it is important to continue to masturbate with your hand and encourage your partner to play with you without making any commitment to having an orgasm. The key is to take things slowly and not defer to masturbating in your ‘old fashioned way’. I am convinced that with enough careful practice you will become accustomed to enjoying masturbation in the way you desire. Of course after some considerable effort trying to come to terms with this you may decide masturbation by hand is not for you. There are no strict rules about how we should have sex. Have you tried asking your partner to masturbate you without retracting the foreskin? i.e. moving it in a forwards position. That is one method of enjoying masturbation employed by phimosis sufferers and as I remember myself, quite enjoyable.

It is difficult for me to comment on the feelings of dissimilarity you experience being uncircumcised in America because I live in England and there is little opinion here on whether circumcision is a good thing or not. I am sure that regardless of your nationality there are some women for whom it will not be an issue.

Finally I am drawn to consider your last paragraph,

‘Anyway, I feel that part of my past has affected my personality in the way that I feel inadequate as a man. I never had full on phimosis, but I still feel that my latency in retraction and my lack of being monitored may have affected me in some way. ‘

It is a real shame that you are made to feel this way, in my opinion because of the apparent pre-conceived notions in existence within your society. I genuinely feel that the issue that has affected you more significantly is that of your dissimilarity to your piers rather than your latency of retraction. In general phimosis sufferers complain of similar psychological affects but those affects normally dissipate once treatment has been completed. I personally experienced the same insecurity as you until approximately 12 months after my circumcision by which time I had dealt with my issues, come to terms with my new penis and moved on with a sense of ultimate freedom.

It is apparent that for whatever reason you have not dealt with your issues and hopefully you will find guidance and reassurance from other members of ARC to help you achieve that goal.

Good Luck

Nick

____________________________________________________

Re: Psychological Implications

25 May 2005 19:09:07 - Robin

Hi Joe,
fascinating letter -
so first Im glad you have developed the maturity to have a sense of humour

(edited)

So lets get back to the start, the origins.
As soon as babies learn to coordinate their hand movements, and as soon as they are out of nappies, (diapers for you) then they are sure to discover their penis.
How I read it is a boys first inhibition to developing a healthy normal relationship with his maleness, is diapers. Added to this is the fact that young mothers often dont realise that baby boys have regular erections. (this was even more predominant in the days before ultrasound was able to diagnose a childs gender before birth - because in the womb baby boys have almost constant erections). Some mothers are embarrassed by these erections, and may even be worried about their "little Joe" becoming a sex maniac and so as a socially accepted solution they keep the diapers on longer than they are needed.

There are many basic factors which I dont know. I have not talked with enough parents. eg. do babies lie on their backs or fronts? - Therefore I can only speculate, but it seems for the first few years that some boys only experience a secondary contact with their penis, - secondary ie. through the material of the diapers. The amount of young boys who discover their erection or their glans for the first time at bath time would tend to confirm this.

I imagine that some sort of form of diaper has been used since civilisation began - and since then, once boys learn to control bowell movements etc. (age?) then they can start developing an intimate self contact - self sexual security - sexual identity etc. And for boys who have no anatomical inhibition there is adequate time for them to relearn any baby habits and develop in a normal healthy way so that everything goes Ok at puberty.

I could write for ages on this subject, but Ive covered all I need to. - The main point is about this secondary contact, through the diapers.

It might be worth talking with your Mum, how long did she keep you wrapped up? when were you toilet trained? did she turn you face down? _ REMEMBER and reassure your Mum, no parent is to blame, with the expert advice given in baby books and from specialists in sexuality, even today, no parent is to blame for either RIC or ignoring the foreskin completely.

Really yours is a fascinating letter - only very rarely get reports from pre puberty and have never had such detail.

How I read the situation is that you are a really quick learner - and this is exactly the problem

because you learnt so early that something was wrong, you confirmed your fears, worries, envy etc. also very early. - You consciously experienced pain felt your penis was malformed or something (were so unsure that you call it "malformed or something") and were envious of cousins, all with the age of 4 or 5 !!!

Most boys experience first at puberty and repress afterwards. Most boys have established basic personality and psychology, for at least 6 yrs. more than you before conditions start to manifest any adverse effects.

You experienced and repressed your problems PRE puberty, several years pre puberty, and even though physically youd resolved this at the age of 7,8 or 9, this was after several years repression avoidance, (possibly implying fear or guilt for a few years) "I remember the last time I did any sort of playing it hurt to pull my foreskin back ..." and even though it was the best day in your life "I couldn't touch my glans directly, otherwise it would sting a little bit..." - ... one would hope after so much trauma, it would be completely resolved and forgotten, and though one tries to develop a hard traditional unconcerned male attitude, the bloody thing is still not 100% comfortable, you cant be relaxed with yourself, and you are still untouchable. That all with the age of 9 !!

Often after full circ operations - well lets take an average look the pain is recognised at 12 yrs. at start of puberty,. the sufferer has phimosis till 18 - 30 yrs. old then has full circ and then another 5 yrs. uncomfortable with over sensitivity -

Again, your experience took place pre puberty, - my actual manifested conscious experience started age 11 - do you see - the fundament of my personality was far better established - previously my condition had not misled me - except in a latent sense in that I hadnt developed any good habits pre puberty. (And this I believe but dont know but I believe "normal" boys who CAN retract their foreskin, do this, and explore and get to know themselves - and are confirmed in some male potential before puberty. - not erotic, just pleasant comforting sensations in the relationship with oneself - a security, a basis of any future confirmation). - I imagine it was your 2 cousins who could retract - and encouraged you to join in - I dont need to be very clever to imagine the situation, -it just seems the ones who can, do, are aware of it and enjoy it, and the others often simply dont notice.

Before I continue I want to ask about some inconsistancies:
"they were already able to pull back their foreskins. .... one cousin who could pull back his skin to reveal a large purple head." and your Mum said they were operated, ...
So they must have had a partial circumcision. With a full circ the glans is always uncovered ...

the other point is "The other traumatic realization was that most people were circumcised in America. It came to my attention through a very pro-circumcisionist website," and you started looking at websites when you were 17 or 18 ... but what about school, didnt you do sport? I am always hearing about the locker room complex, in the USA boys who are uncircumcised feel left out, in the UK its the ones who are circumcised.- Do you have any explanation why you never noticed? - (if theres no better reason, I would argue that pain and difficulty lead to inhibition and avoidance, and that leads to blindness and dumbness)

Ive often heard about the hand gestures, and I also never understood what it meant. - AND I can well imagine the "tragic" feelings with your first college girl friend. I once masturbated in my normal way for one girl friend, she was horrified - its nothing I can laugh about, I can merely sympathise.

When I open up my third perspective bag of problem solvers, - then right up first comes that YES - NO questions are often very misleading.
Do you hump boards - or Do you try to be normal?
Its not the answers - its getting the questions right which is the tricky bit.

Always take time to and look from and think out questions from other new perspectives.
If its an apparently insoluble question, ask questions which are apparently irrational.

If we talking about re-education, to what extent is this possible desirable or necessary?

I dont know what your question should be. Im not sure exactly where the third perspective will lead you. But its as though you need some sort of secondary "bridge" between your "fetish" and sex with your girl friend. - Have sex on a park bench - (but then she might get jealous!) - are then any wooden sex appliances? - a wooden board on your girl friends tummy! - what about something like a wooden ring - halved and held with elastic or imagine 6 or so little half inch diameter wooden balls threaded on elastic thread - round the base of your phallus. - no use? - I dont know the answer - but I know it lies in thinking creatively, and having fun and experimenting with your girl friend.

Maybe try infibulation, - tie a bit of elastoplast, string, around your overhang in order to simulate a phimosis - see if your girl friend can masturbate you then - maybe some latent deep rooted fear could be set out of gear with this -

Why wood, why something hard? - (why is the first consciously sexual erection so memorable? - I remember mine, and sexual fantasies are still related to this), - but why something hard? - boys often rub themselves on soft things in bed, maybe something to do with your earliness, could it be related to scrabbling round on the floor - even as a baby??? - --- did you have a rocking horse??

From an initiation point of view, what you have to do is carry on being so wonderfully open and honest, balanced with a sense of humour and you cant really go wrong, let yourself develop- its a whole personality situation - we cant isolate and remove specific memories - it is all mixed at a very deep and elementary level.

Initiation - I believe in the modern world this means self initiation, self understanding, self realising, ie. where you are now, accepting nothing is "wrong" with you, its just your experience, which led you so far, and (I believe) its not so bad, and I believe you can feel this as well. Your parents gave intelligence feeling, and balance, sense of humour etc., probably ability to love (Ive known several men who could get all the girls and never knew love) by balance I mean youre talking deeply about yourself without being cold without freaking out ... and you also have internet.

So, last but not least my suggestion is: - join ARC, maybe now, maybe later, - this is something I find essential, if I had not started this site, I would now be a looney homeless and probably humping benches in public by now. - the experience was a waste of love energy etc. - I dont want to waste the experience - My God am I glad for www - it gave me a way I could channel my crazy traumatic experience into something positive.

hope you enjoyed reading - it was fun writing
cheerio
Robin

____________________________________________________

Re: Psychological Implications

26 May 2005 09:06:51 - Joe

Thanks for writing such a long and detailed letter yourself! I was waiting all week, checking this site constantly.

Well, first things first...

~Before I continue I want to ask about some inconsistancies:
"they were already able to pull back their foreskins. .... one cousin who could pull back his skin to reveal a large purple head." and your Mum said they were operated, ...
So they must have had a partial circumcision. With a full circ the glans is always uncovered ...~

To be honest, I don't think my mum knew was she was talking about. I think she was under a false assumption that only circumcised boys could pull back their foreskin. I don't think she knew that circumcision involved the removal of any skin. I remember my cousins had long hanging skins. I think she just gave me that answer as a cop-out because she herself didn't know too much about the development of a penis...

~the other point is "The other traumatic realization was that most people were circumcised in America. It came to my attention through a very pro-circumcisionist website," and you started looking at websites when you were 17 or 18 ... but what about school, didnt you do sport? I am always hearing about the locker room complex, in the USA boys who are uncircumcised feel left out, in the UK its the ones who are circumcised.- Do you have any explanation why you never noticed? - (if theres no better reason, I would argue that pain and difficulty lead to inhibition and avoidance, and that leads to blindness and dumbness)~

There is an important explanation for this. After the sixth grade, my parents, mostly my extremist mother, thought they needed to put me in a private Christian school a local church had just barely opened. This was a make-shift school that used the local church building as a school building as well. Though it had somewhat of a physical educational program, there were no showers or locker rooms. When we changed into our PE outfits no one had to take off their underwear to reveal anything, and changing underwear to reveal any sort of nakedness was forbidden. (I think this was because in the brand new christian school board's eyes, it smarked of homosexuality for boys to be naked together.)My mother didn't care that the school was actually lacking in various curricular resources, just that it was a sheltered christian environment, so I was pretty much stuck where I was at for 4 years. At the 4th year I kicked and screamed to be let into the public school system, but that only lasted 2 years. And both of those years I had to spend time catching up because the curriculum at the christian school where I was a figurative guinea pig was actually more lacking, so I didn't participate in any sports in the public school system either. So the last time I ever saw any other boys naked was back when I was small with my cousin.

(edited)

~>Really yours is a fascinating letter - only very rarely get reports from pre puberty and have never had such detail.~
Well, I think I'm also a special case. A lot of people I have talked to can't remember that far back. They talk about their childhoods being a blur, but I can tell you of memories I've had since I was about 3.

~>How I read the situation is that you are a really quick learner - and this is exactly the problem
>because you learnt so early that something was wrong, you confirmed your fears, worries, envy etc. also very early. - You consciously experienced pain felt your penis was malformed or something (were so unsure that you call it "malformed or something") and were envious of cousins, all with the age of 4 or 5 !!!~
Indeed. Actually, I think I experienced all of this in about 15 minutes... I remember looking at my cousins for the first time, watching how they could retract their skins, trying to retract mine, instantly feeling a sting, and at the very next moment feel cheated or deformed for not being able to retract like my cousins did.

(edited)

>Why wood, why something hard? - (why is the first consciously sexual erection so memorable? - I remember mine, and sexual fantasies are still related to this), - but why something hard? - boys often rub themselves on soft things in bed, maybe something to do with your earliness, could it be related to scrabbling round on the floor - even as a baby??? - --- did you have a rocking horse??~
Actually, I don't think there is any connection with wood whatsoever. It's more having to do with a hard surface, and I seriously think it goes back to that time in elementary school where I discovered orgasm.

(edited)

Most assuredly I will come back. I have been initiated, so to speak, to find myself, and I find this site extremely helpful in more ways than one.

Joe

___________________________________________________

Re: Psychological Implications

08 Jun 2005 19:12:44 - Robin

As an answer to: Re: Psychological Implications written by Rob at 25 May 2005 19:09:07:

(edited)

I cant guarantee that my interpretation of your experience is correct, its just that I recognise the same feelings, usually 20 yrs. later, and here I have over a 100 letters ... I mean, I think you read the Late Initiate, and maybe the Passages to Manhood, - how do you identify with these??

AND very very important, you played with your cousins more than once, this is very interesting, I was under the impression that it was a one off event which left you so embarrassed that it was not repeated - what were your feelings on the other occasions?

________________

over the week Ive thought maybe Im wrong on this next point, in that I may have imagined that boys hump soft things, but a great number of reports arent too specific about what they rub up against, and actually I dont see how anything soft would provide the "friction" or how can I call it the "resistance" to stimulate, ... so maybe everyone humps hard ....? ... I seem to remember one boy at school came against the tension in his trousers - hummm? maybe methods of humping could be a suggested research project for you ...

(edited)
____________________________

>Most assuredly I will come back. I have been initiated, so to speak, to find myself, and I find this site extremely helpful in more ways than one.

(edited)

and secondly I have been too enthusiastic, too soon, yes I have thoughts on RIC, but they are not going to change your situation. ... The question should be - "what do boys need?" not "Do boys need RIC or not?" ... if you wanted to read routine.html and early_learning.html and think about the consequences and post a reply on ARCgroup, then you are welcome.

you and no-one else will ever form an objective unbiased attitude by compromising between yes and no ..... I repeat : the question should be - "what do boys need?" not "Do boys need RIC or not?"

hummm think thats all

cheers
Rob